ellenkushner: (gargoyle)
ellenkushner ([personal profile] ellenkushner) wrote2009-01-26 04:48 pm
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As Ray Charles said when he picked up the Passover matzah. . . .

"Who reads this shit?"

OK, in the actual joke it's "Who wrote it?" - but that's not my punchline for this post. See, it's like this:

On Saturday we went to a new play at Vital about the loving relationship of two adult sisters, one of whom gets cancer, and the other has to decide whether or not to pursue her mid-life dream of being a Writer, which involves taking a grueling grad school degree from a Bigshot Writer. She works hard, even beating out the hipster guy who wins prizes for stories that essentially come down to "Will my protagonist get laid?" (which, having now read a ton of submissions to various places, I am here to tell you is what a shocking percentage are about. Yawn. But that's another post....) . . . and her reward, her big marker of success, is that her mentor recommends her stuff to a prestigious literary Little Magazine. Which, after many edits & revisions, publishes her story. I suspect only the dying sister reads it. Though possibly she dies first.

The next day, Guy Kay (an old pal from our mutual Struggling Writer days) sends me this from Harper's (read it and laugh so hard you'll snork. I particularly like "This sentence is short, not because it is brief—which it is—but because it has few words.") Very cheering. But.

So here's the thing: What made me - and most people I know - want to be writers is that we loved to read. We read a lot. We wanted to write the kinds of books we loved to read.

Schools are full of grad students whose highest goal seems to be getting published in small literary magazines with minute circulations. But have they actually read those magazines themselves first? Did they love reading them?

I'm probably being an idiot here, but I've already written the post, and it seems a waste of time to delete it now. Also, it gives me a chance to offer you the link to the Colson Whitehead piece.

[identity profile] ellen-kushner.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 03:41 am (UTC)(link)
Innnnteresting..... You're probably right. Delia spoke recently to a class of very tough city high school kids. One of the biggest and meanest barked out that he only read horror. Really? she asked him. Which authors? and he couldn't name any.

Afterwards he came up to her in the hall and told her he really loved Romances.

[identity profile] ellen-kushner.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 03:42 am (UTC)(link)
I think "literary fiction" is a genre, like any other. The paragraph about Raymond Carver is a dead giveaway.

Re: HA!

[identity profile] ellen-kushner.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 03:46 am (UTC)(link)
"If I didn't have any characterization or description and ended the story before anything happened, I was doing pretty good"

Ayup.

And problematics & you & rosefox . .. there's so much love to go around!

[identity profile] yaoi-in-exile.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 03:47 am (UTC)(link)
Now that's just silly! I didn't even know anything about all this fuss over magazine publishings before Alpha, when I learned the big deal at the end of the week was we were sending our stories off to mags. And then suddenly there was a revelation: oh, yes! There are stories in magazines, too! Books were always the end-all of literary fame, to my mind, even at a very young age. Novellas don't even really register, I have trouble distinguishing them from "very short books".

Bleeeghh. XD

[identity profile] otherdeb.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 04:07 am (UTC)(link)
It may be a genre, but it seems to me, from my limited experience with people who consider themselves literary writers, that it's often an excuse to put others down.

[identity profile] ellen-kushner.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 04:14 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, and my calling it a genre is my subtle way of trying to put them in their place.

Don't try it at home.

Re: HA!

[identity profile] mildmannered.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 04:25 am (UTC)(link)
Well done!

[identity profile] otherdeb.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 04:25 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you! I needed the laugh.

Re: HA!

[identity profile] mildmannered.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 04:27 am (UTC)(link)
Is ... that the sound of you springing a woody for rosefox, or the sound of a harp string breaking in protest?

Re: HA!

[identity profile] yaoi-in-exile.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 04:31 am (UTC)(link)
*Both*. X3!

[identity profile] innocentsmith.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 05:08 am (UTC)(link)
especially rang my chimes with "cross-pollination,"

Ha, well, yes, I've been trying to write my personal statement and come up with a way of saying, "I'm going to want to write genre and historical fiction, I'm going to be really frustrated if you say I can't write genre and historical fiction, I really hope you can see that genre and historical fiction is valuable and doesn't need to be formulaic despite all the people who would prefer to just dismiss it." Some way that's, you know, tactful.

Anyone good you can recommend?

Erm, well. *shuffles feet* Keep in mind that I meant it when I said I was five years out of date sometimes.

A couple of people I wonder if I'm not cheating by reccing, because they've landed on my LJ flist after I found their work: Adrienne J. Odasso (poetry and fiction) and Lucy Knisley (graphic novels). I think they're both up-and-coming in their own corners of the literary world, and they deserve to be because I think they're working to expand those corners.

On the side of well-established Lit Fic people, whose stuff I seek out despite being a genre girl at heart, I love Aimee Bender a lot. Been to see her read three times now (easier when I lived in LA) and I keep buying her books for people at holidays.

T.C. Boyle is frequently awesome. And one of my favorite writers is Susan Straight, who was also my favorite undergraduate prof.

I also have a whole collection of people whose work in fandom I admire like mad, though I'm somewhat embarrassed to say I'm not sure how you feel about fanfic and transformative works, so. (Though I see you've got Naomi Novik friended.) Just, I'm rather amused to find fandom tropes turning up elsewhere: sometimes to amazing effect, like Samantha Henderson's Five Ways Jane Austen Never Died, from the "Five Times" story form, and sometimes...not so successfully. :/

[identity profile] innocentsmith.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 05:37 am (UTC)(link)
At my college graduation, I was standing in line with one of my fellow Creative Writing students and having one of those hey-sorry-we-never-got-to-talk conversations, and I asked him if he planned to continue writing and, by the way, who were his influences? (I was kind of trying to remember what his writing was like, since I was sure we'd been in workshop togeether but couldn't remember any of his stories.)

"Yeah, I probably will. But I don't have influences. Actually, I don't really like to read. S'too much work."

I stared at him for a bit, but he apparently wasn't kidding.

[identity profile] gaedhal.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 06:08 am (UTC)(link)
There was a great interview with Paul McCartney
a while ago. He was asked what kind of music he
listened to. "Everything" he said. "Everything?"
"Yes -- rock, jazz, folk, classical, everything.
I'm a musician after all! It's all music! And
I love it all!"

[identity profile] gaedhal.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 06:16 am (UTC)(link)
No one reads these things. And I know because I've
published in them and been involved in editing more
than one.

What's the quote about publishing a poem in a literary
mag is like dropping a petal down the Grand Canyon and
waiting to hear the splash? Why do you think they pay
in copies? They have to get rid of the things!

The reality is that most "little magazines" are funded
by universities or funds left by some person 50 years
ago when the thing might have had some viability.
We used to get tons of them in our department and they
sat on the shelf in the Creative Writing Library --
no one ever touched them. Eventually they went into a
box and then -- who knows where?

I published in such mags for over 10 years and NEVER
heard anything from anyone except the editor to send
me my free copies.

The first "fanfic" story I posted on the web 8 years
ago I got over 200 hundred comments and e-mails in
the first three days and more in the following weeks.
You tell me where I was making contact? What was the
more relevant piece of work? I have no doubt at all.

[identity profile] lethe-lloyd.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 07:50 am (UTC)(link)
So here's the thing: What made me - and most people I know - want to be writers is that we loved to read. We read a lot. We wanted to write the kinds of books we loved to read.

It would be cheering to know in advance that people also want to read the books you are writing. Desperately.

I actually love wordsmiths who write luscious prose, but I've been told I am so unfashionable I should be in a museum. Ah, well. d;-)

May I ask - is this Guy Kay who wrote the Fionavar Tapestry and Tigana? I love his work, I have been trying to find people on my f-list who have read him. He's one of those writers whose books end up looking extremely ravished. Swordspoint is also on that ( rather small )shelf along with Tolkien and a couple of others.

[identity profile] innocentsmith.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 08:56 am (UTC)(link)
...NEVER heard anything from anyone except the editor

That is depressing. And certainly it's a great aspect of fanwriting that there's this warmth, this immediate response to what you've written and a willingness on the part of both readers and writers to discuss the work, their interpretations of it; fanfic writers and readers can have this complex and friendly discourse, because the internet allows instant communication like that. I mean, I could be wrong here, but I think there was a time when people felt that people who wrote the popular short stories they read in magazines - and read in great volume, from the end of the Victorian era to about the Second World War - were in some sense more approachable because they did read those stories, they knew the stories were there to entertain them, not to be Good For Them, so they had correspondence with authors and went to see them lecture and listened to their radio programs and so on. But there was still the dividing factor of time between one letter and another, and - now, to some extent I'm just going on those authors I'm particularly fond of, so I could be totally off the mark here - also a sort of inequality between reader and writer. Because one had come to the other to praise (or maybe condemn, but at least interact with) that person's text.

Where in fandom, aside from the communication being instantaneous and both sides tending to speak off the cuff, there really isn't as much distance because it's already an us vs. them situation. As fans, you're on one side of a divide and the creators are on another, and there's this faint sense of participating in some kind of outlawry, also a binding force. And when as a reader you approach a fanwork, you have that in common with the fan who made it, and you also have - obviously - a common interest in the original work. So immediately you have things you can talk about with regard to characterization and setting and the choices they made in their writing.

Fandom interaction is just infinitely less intimidating than talking about someone's original work, where theirs is the Word of God. Even if the writer is friendly and totally willing to engage with readers it's awkward, because what can you say or not say? It might be easier to talk to the same person about another person's writing: everyone's a fan of something. But if conversation goes to the author's own works, does there need to be a line there, to ensure that people still get credit for and have a certain degree of ownership of their own original ideas and work?

The first "fanfic" story I posted on the web 8 years
ago I got over 200 hundred comments and e-mails in
the first three days


Hey, that's great! Do you mind me asking what fandom it was in?

See, I can't help thinking there has to be a way to bridge this gap. Because the answer can't be that aspiring writers should just throw up their hands and go, "Hell with this, I'm just writing fanfic," and leave the making of original source to big corporations and people who're willing to play the distorting games that come with being handed huge sums of money. Even if that model of things weren't having trouble, too.

And though there are several authors emerging now out of fandom who I love and respect a lot, I don't particularly like the idea that the new system is "you get a fanfic audience, you get them willing to buy your original fic, then you leave fandom behind," either; I mean, that's great if that's what you want to do, but it's not what everyone wants to do; some people would like to have both, and plenty of fanwriters out there who aren't interested in having their own original stuff published. That doesn't mean they're not doing brilliant work and contributing to this tremendous and often innovative force of creativity.

It does seem like fan culture becomes more and more a part of popular culture on a daily basis. So how do you connect between pop culture and fan culture and Culture-with-a-capital-C? I guess you just have to get people involved in all of these spheres who are able to respect all of them as valuable, and I think maybe that's happening too. At least, I hope so.

And wow, this is long, so, um, [/soapbox].

[identity profile] gerbilicous.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 01:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Fabulous post!

I went to University for my degree in English, but I really went thinking "This will teach me how to write!" How stupid that was? I did learn a lot of very interesting things, like how I actually really like Milton, which I'd never thought I did, but for writing, it was such a bust.

What I did learn was that, if I wanted to be a writer, I wasn't going to learn how in my creative writing classes, which mostly focused on getting published in our school writing journal... which couldn't give away the five hundred copies it printed.

In the end, I graduated without honors and got a dumpy job where I could write at work. Wrote a few books, then wrote the one that knocked it out of the park. I've got a 3 book deal now writing books I love.

But the REAL happy ending is that, when I emailed my mentor in the English department to tell her the good news, she ran to tell the head of the department, and now I'm a distinguished alumna. Distinguished alumna, picture on the wall, and all for writing the same kind of stories that four years ago my Creative Writing teacher said I should chuck over for "serious fiction."

The world moves in funny ways, sometimes.

[identity profile] ellen-kushner.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 11:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, that's Guy Gavriel Kay; he's written many many big fat wonderful books! And we all love being ravished by our readers. No, really.

Have you read Dorothy Dunnett? Both Guy & I were very much influenced by her "Lymond" series.

[identity profile] ellen-kushner.livejournal.com 2009-01-28 04:20 am (UTC)(link)
I love that story. It is a wonderful story, and I am so glad for you!

And I so agree that one should study literature, not writing, in college. There is so much to learn! And stuff like Milton & Chaucer and even 19c folks can be hard to read without a Friendly Native Guide.

Write on your own time.

[identity profile] lethe-lloyd.livejournal.com 2009-01-28 07:56 am (UTC)(link)
Lol, read books with passion d;-)

I have heard the name, but not read her. I will be following that up. Thank-you :)

[identity profile] gerbilicous.livejournal.com 2009-01-28 12:35 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm so glad you liked it! It's definitely the happy ending to my college story!

The best thing I got out of my English Major was the ability to read the classics and see how they've influenced other writers over the years. It also gave me the freedom to not like serious fiction, because I've been there, done that, and can now freely love Fantasy with eyes wide open (not to mention appreciating it even more than before).

[identity profile] elswhere1.livejournal.com 2009-01-28 07:56 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm with innocentsmith on the small literary magazines: they are expensive to subscribe to, and hard to find, but back when I was reading them with some attention (10-15 years ago when I had Literary Fiction aspirations) I read several stories by authors I'd read elsewhere and loved; there were a few, whose authors I couldn't cite to save my life, that have stayed with me to this day.

So it's not so much that I didn't like the contents (I like some-- not all-- New Yorker stories, and lots of the Glimmer Train etc. ones were similar), but the magazines themselves aren't very accessible. Also (this might be just me) I don't like reading one short story after another; I'm not a big short story anthology reader, either, even in genres I adore.

The Literary Fiction career path was presented to me (back in those days) as just that: a career path. You don't submit to Glimmer Train because you grew up loving Glimmer Train; you submit to Glimmer Train in hopes of getting an impressive publication credit so as to get an agent when you want to sell your novel. It's not the ultimate goal, but it's the first step.

It's not that different than other career paths, writing-related or otherwise: you aspire to be like the people you admire, but you don't always get that gig, especially not at first. How many would-be NYT journalists find themselves writing for some mid-level, small-city paper that they never would've been caught dead reading, or maybe never even heard of, back in their youth? How many young people, inspired to get into politics by, say, a certain brand-new president, will put in a good many years on city council, dealing with the mundanities of zoning laws that hardly anyone thinks about? Etc.

For me, it all started to feel exhausting; the odds and the glacial pace and the lack of feedback got to me and I didn't have the stamina. And I agree that the whole scene can be quite...precious, I guess would be the word. But in its who-reads (sees, notices, has ever heard of)-this-stuff-ness, it's hardly unique.

[identity profile] ellen-kushner.livejournal.com 2009-01-28 10:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, you may not have been up for the path of Literary Fiction, but I gotta say, as an essayist/memoirist, none can excel! Thanks for a very clear and clear-sighted explanation. As always, coz.

[identity profile] ellen-kushner.livejournal.com 2009-01-28 10:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks!

[identity profile] ellen-kushner.livejournal.com 2009-01-28 10:42 pm (UTC)(link)
I see. Maybe kind of like what "elswhere1" wrote about, below?

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