cyrano

[ellenkushner]

Saw the Kevin Kline Cyrano de Bergerac production this afternoon. The staging was just swell; the acting ranged from pretty good to superb, although I must say I thought their Roxane (Jennifer Garner) was weak - too modern, and she doesn't have much of a voice for theatre. You need someone more interesting, I think, to make the objectified female love object real to a modern audience. Making her slightly Californian doesn't quite cut it. (And she hadn't matured by the last act; 15 years of dignified mourning were supposed to have changed her!) Besides, we need to see what makes her lovable. Which led me to think about writing something from her P.O.V. As I walked home down Broadway I thought, "Oh, there will be swordfights and cloaks in this one, too, but too bad there's no way for boy/boy romance this time around, ha ha" - but a quick look at Wiki told me how wrong I was! As a French Cyrano site puts it, Savinien est bien ami avec d’Assoucy – amis très intimes parait-il, mais... cela ne nous regarde pas.... They were both libertins (which may sound like libertines and is probably where it came from, but was originally from the Latin libertinus, meaning a(n intellectually) freed slave - i.e., a "free-thinker"). I knew Roxane was supposed to be a Precieuse from the Parisian women's salons, and was hoping she could be part of the Mme d'Aulnoy fairy-tale circle, but she's a generation too early; the Cyrano events take place ca. 1640 (Siege of Arras), and d'Aulnoy was born ca. 1650, publishing in 1680s. So a historical Roxane (who only kind of existed) would have been in with the Rambouillet Salon crowd instead.

Anyway, research rambles also led me to this, which I felt sure no true swashbuckling fan would want to miss.

The other best part of the performance was the Audience: many women behind us who sounded like they were straight from a TV sitcom about ladies from Queens at a matinee. I can't remember what they said, exactly; it was more the way they said it. And they sobbed loudly and recklessly over the ending. I do remember one saying, "I don't remember the ending being like that. I thought he got the girl!"

And at the end of Part I, right after Roxane reveals her marriage to Christian to the jealous Comte de Guiche, another woman behind us asked her companion, why the sudden marriage? Because the count, her friend explained with a faintly Southern accent, had been planning to bed her down first.
- To what?
- To bed her down.
- Oh. Could they do that?
- Yes. Because he had all the power.

Just so.

Comments

[woodburner.livejournal.com]

It would seem that as far as history is concerned, there is always room for boy/boy romance. ;D

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

Remarkable as Madame Rambouillet was as a person, I suspect a habituee of her ruelles would not appeal much to modern audiences. From anything I could gather, her salon very swiftly developed the original "precieuse" speech, so that rain was always "heaven's blissful tears" and so forth. A little of that, say some contemporary letters, went a looooooong way--which is why rival salons set up in the first place.

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Well, one of the rival ones, then.

Or should I just Cheat? (see below)

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

And there's interesting material in here about female friendships, too - from http://www.femspec.org/samples/salon.html I get:

"La Carte de Tendre bears a dedication to Mme. De Rambouillet, whose salon, called La Chambre Bleue, (The Blue Room) has come to be known as the first official salon. Its clientele was largely aristocratic. Mlle. De Scudery had attended Mme. De Rambouillet�s salon, but her own salon, on the Rue de Beauce, whose reunions were known as Les Samedis (Saturdays), received frequentors largely from the bourgeoisie, since she was not from the aristocracy. However, because she admired Mme. De Rambouillet for her courtly grace, she sought to emulate aristocratic life at her own salon. Depicting 17th century salon society and its psychologically intimate intrigues in her novels, Mlle. De Scudery developed a metaphorical map game which elaborated a method by which the pretendants to her heart as well as to membership in her salon, which she also considered to be a country over which she reigned as Queen, could establish the itinerary that would lead them to find the most rapid route to Tender Friendship. Ascribing various degrees to friendship, Madeleine de Scudery made fine distinctions between her intimate friends, particular friends, close friends, and tender friends. Tender friends was the highest level one could achieve in a relationship with her. It was the category describing the asexual, but psychologically intimate friendship that she bestowed only upon those closest to her, who were her favorites."

Kind of Eleanor of Acquitaine for Girls, no?

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

Ohhhh yes. Scudery is the one who wrote those interminable novels which were actually manuals for courtly behavior. She also invented portraits, the passion for the in-crowd that landed Bussy-Rabutin's ass in prison, and distorted further and further until porn pretty much had to have peepholes and secret rooms as well as tantalizing religious no-nos.

The whole thing about portaits, privacy vs public, the court mask, and above all, her relationship with other women that leaves men way out in the cold is a subject sooooo ripe for some good fiction.

(Though I'd also be tempted by the far more fascinating scene at Sceux and the complex, kinds creepy Madame du Deffand.)

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

OMG - how do you come to know so much about all this??

Plus, what's all this about Sceaux? I lived there for a year when I was a kid! On the wrong side of the tracks, as it turned out - Delia & I went back there a few years ago, and toured the chateau, and then walked for miles to get to our old house....

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

I read all this stuff for pleasure. Madame de Sevigny has some juicy bits about them all, among others.

Sceux was where Orleans and his "wicked" wife held a brilliant court well away from the glum Versailles of Madame de Maintenon's rule, which gave over to the distinctively different salons of the 1700s. These were far more political, and fascinating, each different. Deffands was, at its best, what the Algonguin people thought they were doing, but were only a pale and kinda pathetic reflection of: you had to be smart to hold up your end, and portraiture could get really, really vicious in a scathingly clever way. You also needed several languages to catch the wit, but I can't discover that English was actually spoken well there--it was mostly used for indelicate asides.

Scudery was very much a woman's thing, ditto Mlle Lafayette--no political influence, and Les Precieuses did jab them fairly truly. But for all that they had enormous influence. Except for Louis XIV's reign, courts were no longer the hot place to be, salons were. And Madame Ramb. started hers because Louis XIII and his boyz were too rough and into one another to keep the interest of Paris.

(And actually, I think Athenais was keeping a salon right there in Versailles.)

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

Enormous social and cultural influence.

[handworn.livejournal.com]

* sigh * Wish I had the time to read all that.

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

ObExistingExample,OMG!: Hope Mirrlees's Madeleine: One of Love's Jansenists (1919), about a provincial girl who basically daydreams Mary Sue fanfic of herself as a member of Mlle de Scudéry's salon.

[gwynnega]

A Roxane POV story would be awesome, though it is too bad she's too early for the Mme d'Aulnoy fairy-tale circle.

And Jennifer Garner really doesn't seem right for the role...

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Well, the NYTimes thought Garner was fab. Go figure. (Oops - yeah - Roxane, not Roxanne. Will fix!)

So here we come to it: can I just play fast-and-loose with the 17c? I mean. . . All of it? Oh, oh, it is so Wrong - but it feels so Right! After all, look at Rostand - he was not exactly Historically Accurate. And everyone loves his play! But then, we live in a more demanding time. Oh dear, oh dear . . .

This is why I write historical fantasy, not historical fiction! Damned facts, getting in the way of a good story . . . .

[unovis-lj.livejournal.com]

If Courtilz, Maquet, and Dumas could scramble the Musketeers' dates, then why not?

[gwynnega]

So here we come to it: can I just play fast-and-loose with the 17c?

For a good story, I'd definitely say yes! There must be a way to wiggle around it...

[ricevermicelli.livejournal.com]

Yeah that. I would forgive you for mangling it. Let's put it this way: if Susannah Clarke can play merry hob with the Napoleonic Wars, and thousands upon thousands of mediocre historical novelists can repurpose Admiral Lord Nelson as Well Done, Son Guy, you can push the dates around to play with Cyrano de Bergerac.

Which, incidentally, is a book I would stand in line at midnight to get my hands on.

[gwynnega]

Which, incidentally, is a book I would stand in line at midnight to get my hands on.

ME TOO.

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

You comfort me. Truly, you do.

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

cloaks, swordfights, French salons with or without fairy tales, and the potential for boy-boy romance?

Stand in line at midnight to buy MULTIPLE COPIES.

Oh, and at Thanksgiving at matociquala's we encapsulated the sort of movie that Hollywood is inexplicably failing to provide us, and thus not getting as much of our money as they might:

Costume-porn gay boys with happy endings.

Yes, we still want the Swordspoint movie!

[vschanoes.livejournal.com]

an I just play fast-and-loose with the 17c?

Of course you can, my darling. That is what poetic license is for--it is what would make your work historical fiction rather than history itself. Art trumps life every time.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with this, and everyone else who says "have fun with it."

Historical accuracy is useful when it gives you cool added bits to play with. There is just so much potential here.

Like, did you know that cross dressing for celebrations came in and out of fashion? Sometimes at the top, but definitely farther down the social ranks. Sometimes just for fun--I discovered that in the Betsy Wynne diaries, when she and her sisters got their footman to dress up as a woman to fool some local ladies who came calling. And for a Carnival revel, their mother and father traded clothes to go out to a party, fun being had by all concerned.

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Wahoo!

And thanks, VS, for that vote of confidence - if a prickly scholar gives me leave . . . .

[handworn.livejournal.com]

It's rare that history conforms well to storytelling (Mark Twain interrupts in my mind: "Of course truth is stranger than fiction! Fiction has to make sense.") but storytellers just about never get a pass from history people that way, more's the pity. I wouldn't worry about it. No one with half a brain criticizes Shakespeare in Love for messing with the Sacred Historical Record.

[abrakadabrah.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the Times thought she was fab, which surprised me, but the NYSun, I believe, thought she was not at all the thing. So I moderated my decision to go, and my excitement slipped away, and then forgot about it all, until now.

Just how much of a distracting presence was she? I imagine Kevin Kline was terrific - but it's hard sitting at an entertainment when one of the actors is constantly breaking down your willful suspension of disbelief.

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Oh, she's not *that* bad. The performance as a whole was terrific - Kline underplayed a little, but then he had to, for a modern audience, and it worked beautifully. He always sounded like he was just thinking aloud. And guys like his best buddy LeBret, and the poet/cook Rageneau, were fantastic - real stage actors know how to become real people - it was the big name TV/film folks who were a little weak by contrast, but the direction was coherent enough to make it all hang together.

[bibliolicious.livejournal.com]

can I just play fast-and-loose with the 17c?

Yes! Take the Guy Kay 'historically-flavoured fantasy' route, then you can tailor the characters to your needs. :-)

I would *love* to read something centred on literary women and female salons in the late 17thc. This comments thread has been reminding me of all the fascinating ladies of the period; have read collections of letters by both Mme de Sevigny and Lady Mary Wortley Montagu over the past few years, wonderful stuff. (If anyone can recommend other collections along similar lines, please do!)

[kingsgrave.livejournal.com]

Kevin Klein... Cyrano...

That? That was the sound of my joy breaking the sound/light barrier, and finding a way to spontaneously teleport me to NYC so I can see that show!

I was never so devastated in my life as the day I finally was forced to admit that my being a girl really DID mean I would never be able to play Cyrano. Likewise, I had to be realistic, and pony up to the fact that I was almost certainly never going to be given the chance to direct the show either, and thereby put paid forever to the idea of Roxanne as a shallow, superficial ninny... alas.

So I have contented myself instead, with writing slashy, unlicensed pastiches, and cheering wildly when others threaten to do the same, or better yet, to spin entirely new dramae from that fine old cloth.

*Cheers wildly!*

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Quickly! Twelfth Night is coming (Jan. 6th)! Invite friends to a party, at which it is understood that you will all be reading Cyrano aloud, with you in the main role (it is your cake, after all).

(So where can one find these pastiches?)

[kingsgrave.livejournal.com]

You know... that idea has much merit. Only I'll be in New Zealand over 12th night. Another year won't hurt too much though, and I've already got quite attached to the notion.

As for the pastiche -- only one actually finished as of right now -- it's here. Unlicensed, and entirely without permission or profit, as I said, but also quite a lot of fun to write.

(Sorry for the double posting -- I'd forgot which account I had signed in.)

[kingsgrave.livejournal.com]

Third time's the charm?

The story is here. (http://ellen-kushner.livejournal.com/139628.html?view=1535596#t1535596)

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Not working - can you just cut-and-paste the link instead?

[kingsgrave.livejournal.com]

http://onondata.occlumens.com/fiction/viewstory.php?sid=63

Sorry about that! This should work. *Crosses fingers...*

[handworn.livejournal.com]

Twelfth Night would be the time for it, all right. She could dress as Viola dressed as a boy while reading Cyrano.

[innerslytherin]

Obviously the "he got the girl" person was thinking of Steve Martin's version. *grin*

I had forgotten just how much I love Cyrano. Thanks for reminding me.

[mildmannered.livejournal.com]

A strange but ... strange entry in the Cyrano-derived body of literature is A.L. Kennedy's "So I am Glad," which is about a radio announcer whose parents made her witness their bdsm, who lives in a rooming house in Scotland, and falls in love with the ghost of Cyrano de Bergerac.

Really one of the strangest books I've ever read, but also contains one of the most beautiful love scenes I've ever read, too.

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Eep! Must find & devour this at once!

[mildmannered.livejournal.com]

Yes, you must! I recommend it.

[vcmw]

Cyrano de Bergerac (at least, the play version... I know little to nothing about the real version) makes me swoon. I like his romanticism because he knows what a twit he is, and yet he does it anyway. It's not as if he doesn't know that his life could have been much better had not his own honor gotten in the way - he just refuses to get out of his own way.

And I think you should certainly play fast and loose with the dates in service of a fun story. For one, most of us readers don't know enough history to know the difference. For two, lots of the best historical adventure novels do, so you'd be in fine company (as folks have already pointed out). For three, the feeling of subversive glee you could get out of dragging people and events from their proper decades would probably be worth the price of admission on its own. If you have to, you can always make up a small random country or city to plop on the map, to remind the sticklers that this isn't real history.

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

I like the cut of your jib!

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

D'Artagnan and Cyrano novels have a long tradition in France: see here http://www.pastichesdumas.com/pages/IntroMousq.html

The Gance film isn't based on any of the books, as it happens, but it's all part of the enduring myth of the Gascon cadets, who occupy much the same romantic place in French popular history as Scottish Highlanders do in British history. Sadly, in reality, Cyrano wasn't a Gascon (he was born and bred in Paris).

And of course Dumas jumbled the dates on purpose, because he wanted to use the background of the siege of La Rochelle and the height of Richelieu's power for the first book: it made a more cohesive story. (I know far too much about this -- not only am I lifelong musketeer fanatic, I co-wrote a book on it a couple of years back and can thus bore for Britain on the subject.)

The best production I've ever seen of Cyrano was in the London West End in the early 90s. The male lead -- Robert Lindsay -- is probably unknown in the US, but is a Klein-type actor and the production just exuded elan. Stella Gonet (House of Eliot, which I believe did show over your side of the Atlantic) played Roxane and made her completely credible -- charm, intelligence, vivacity and an adorable playfulness. And not wet, which is the usual problem in our era (leading to Anne Brochet being the weak link in the Depardieu film).

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

not only am I lifelong musketeer fanatic, I co-wrote a book on it a couple of years back

And what book would that be, pray?

Yes, Roxane is kind of a thankless role - written very wet, indeed - so the actress needs to bring her own character to fill in the blanks.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

Yes, Roxane is kind of a thankless role - written very wet, indeed

Is this not exactly why we need more art written by women that explore these events and the passions that drove them?

As Anne says to Captain Harville: "Yes, yes, if you please, no reference to examples in books. Men have had every advantage of us in telling their own story. . . the pen has been in their hands."

Men have highlighted the colorful male figures, but give us either wicked women who get their just end, or boringly good women who wait for men to decide their fate. No male has touched Aphra Behn, for example, who wrote almost twenty very raunchy plays that did quite well (after arguing in one that if men can write raunch that includes and involves women, well, why can't women write them too?) and this AFTER her career as a spy against the Dutch fleet.

Or Mary Wortley Montague, who, careless of appearances, engaged men straight on intellectually. There's evidence that she wrote entries in The Spectator, and even published nine issues of her own blog, er, pamphlet taking down the absurdities of male government, politics, and superiority. She and Lord Hervey competed for the love of the same man.

Fascinating women romping all over history, "decently" overlooked by male authors. Tchah!

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

"And what book would that be, pray?"

It's called The Four Musketeers: the true story of d'Artagnan, Porthos,Aramis, and Athos, by Kari L Maund (me) and Phil Nanson. It came out from UK history publisher Tempus books in 2005. If you'd like one, I have spares.
I really wish that that Robert Lindsey production had been filmed: Stella Gonet gave a masterclass in how to play Roxane. My heart sank when I heard Jennifer Garner was trying it. Hilary Swank, maybe, but Garner hasn't got the whatever.