You've always wanted to help me with a story, haven't you?

[ellenkushner]

Sure you have!

Here goes:

I'm finishing a story for teens based on a Greek myth, and there are a few factoids I'm missing. Let's call them xxx, as that's what I put in a ms. when I need to look it up later.

There's one about drop spindles, and one about nocturnal animals.

I had always doubted the tale. Tiresias is so dry, so unlovely, so gnarled and hairy and male. But when he took the spindle, his hands held it naturally, xxxing the xxx with a sureness no man could ever know.

* * *

Where her feet trod, night flowers bloomed, and small animals, the mice and xxxs and even rabbits - for she carried no bow but the moon’s curve on her brow – looked up to adore her.

Let xxx be whatever the hell it is I'm looking for - and let some of you actually know what it is! Please.

And thank you.

ADDED: It takes place in mythic ancient Greece. Working title, "The Children of Cadmus." And, no, I don't expect anyone to be an expert on both drop spinning *and* tiny nocturnal animals....

MORE ADDED: And bless you all, my friends - especially the extra-generous spinning experts (not to mention the Ferret Fanciers)! Just to put things in perspective: this is a 12-page short story, so the spinning element is just stage directions in a scene that's really about something else. And now, I will go and study all your comments!

Comments

[philia-fan.livejournal.com]

No clue about the spindle thing.

#2 -- voles?

[jazzfish]

That was my first thought as well, for both of those. "Chipmunks" doesn't scan well and "rats" is clearly inappropriate. Yay voles!

[tlatoani.livejournal.com]

Where is it happening?

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Oops - I forgot to say that, didn't I?

Mythic Greece. The working title is "The Children of Cadmus".

[cartazon.livejournal.com]

Don't know about spinning, but could the second one be voles?

[jmeadows.livejournal.com]

matociquala said the spindle question wanted me. Mmm, spindles.

The main parts of a spindle are the shaft and the whorl. To get the thing spinning, you would flick the shaft, or roll it down your thigh. "Flick" and "Shaft" could go with your xxxes.

[jry.livejournal.com]

Hmm. "...flicking the shaft with a sureness no man could ever know."

Suddenly it doesn't seem to be about spinning anymore. ;-)

[thexpuzzler.livejournal.com]

his hands held it naturally, xxxing the xxx

spinning yarn/twining threads? since you use spindle beforehand? that's what I associate with it.

the mice and xxxs and even rabbits

you're looking for other animals, right? first thing coming to my mind would have been 'ferret' maybe, but then I thought 'squirrels' or 'gophers' might sound good too. The other animals that would fit the category widely would be beavers, and of course rats.

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Are these all nocturnal little critters in fields?

[lnbw.livejournal.com]

Spinning the whorl? I'm not a spindle expert, but I think the roundish thing is called a whorl and you kind of... spin it to make it work. Right?

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

Hedgehogs! #2 should be Hedgies, definitely.

And for #1: drafting the fibers (http://www.handspinning.com/lollipops/spininst.htm).

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

I might go with moles, for the alliteration.

[tanaise.livejournal.com]

dormice!

[henrytroup.livejournal.com]

Very Homeric, dormice are.

[sistercoyote.livejournal.com]

My guess would be "twisting the roving" for the spinning one, but if you'd like I have a great many fiber artists on my f-list and would be happy to post a link here or re-post the question if you don't get an answer.

[themadfish.livejournal.com]

Chipmunks, squirrels, raccoons, eerrrr hamsters? I feel like whatever should be xxx has to be on the same level as mice or at least lesser than rabbits, if that makes any sense.

[jdulac.livejournal.com]

I'm not patient enough to be a spinner, but I have done it passably well and I have friends who do it very well. The hard thing about spinning is getting it even and under consistent tension, while keeping the spindle going at a steady rate. It's a subtle set of motions, mostly in the right hand. I would say something like "drawing out the fibers and twirling the spindle with a steady sureness that no man could ever know..."

This page (http://www.jomsb.org/Sunnifa/Spinning/Spinning.htm)gives a nice description of the process.

I can't help with the nocturnal animals :)

[lisatheriveter.livejournal.com]

Hmm. In Greece, the most likely fiber being spun would be wet-spun flax. I'm thinking "twining the flax," but that verb doesn't feel quite right. I'll pull some spinning references off the shelf and see if I can find something better.

[jmeadows.livejournal.com]

The big word in spinning is "twist". Could that be the verb you're looking for?

[irismoonlight.livejournal.com]

But when he took the spindle, his hands held it naturally, xxxing the xxx with a sureness no man could ever know.

Well, you've got a couple of choices here. When you're drop spinning with deftness (something I have watched friends do many a time, but cannot do myself) you don't hold the spindle most of the time, you're holding the thread or yarn you're creating. The mark of a skilled spinner is the evenness and thinnness of the yarn, and the even, unbroken pull from the roving that looks like a taffy pull (I assume you're spinning wool here.) To begin spinning, you have to hook the end on the bottom of the spindle, so that's a good starting move. Getting the spindle started can be difficult to master.

Speaking specifically of the tool, then, it could be
or "...naturally, hooking the roving with a sureness.."
or "...naturally, attaching the wool to the spindle with a sureness.."

My *choice* would be "naturally, plying the roving onto the whorl with a sureness.."

I can find an instructional video online of drop spindle use, if you're interested.

[irismoonlight.livejournal.com]

er, what jmeadows said. "twisting the roving" would make more sense.

[twistedchick]

I'm a spinner on drop spindles. I can think of several ways to say what you want to say:

drafting the roving -- which means pulling carefully on the roving to put it into the alignment where it will spin the way you want. This technique differs slightly with every kind of fiber.

There are two basic styles of spinning on a drop spindle: long draw and short draw. Short draw is done with longer fibers (wool, silk) -- you hold your hands relatively close together (closer than the length of the fiber) to control the way the twist behaves. Long draw is done with very short fibers (cotton and buffalo (bison) roving among others, and with this you spin a very lightweight small spindle very fast and allow the slight weight and the rapid twist to pull the yarn out of the roving.

So, depending on what your man is spinning, he could be drafting the roving, controlling the twist, monitoring the spin or many other similar things. If you want to ask me more in email, I'm twistedchick at gmail dot com. I've been spinning for several years and have worked on a variety of fibers with a lot of different spindles.

[twistedchick]

I've been told that in ancient Greece they used top-whorl spindles (there are some pictures on urns and such); however, I've also been told by my teachers that what's called a Turkish spindle actually came from Macedonia and was spread to the east during Alexander's conquest. I don't know if this will affect what you're writing.

The spindle to the left in the upper picture on this page is similar to what I understand was the style of a good-quality woman's spindle in ancient Greece:
http://www.hatchtown.com/highws.html#LADY

This is a traditional version of a Turkish spindle, which allows you to wind your spun fiber into a ball while you're spinning:
http://blogs.ebay.com/woolyknitpicks/entry/Wooly-knitpicks-TURKISH-SPINDLE-spins-like-a-drea/_W0QQidZ231372014

The more modern version of a Turkish spindle has curved arms interlaced on the shaft.

toads

[suzanna-o.livejournal.com]

I vote for toads! They have such cute little golden eyes, I can imagine them looking up adoringly.

Re: toads

[henrytroup.livejournal.com]

I could see toads there.

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

I've only played a very little bit with drop spindles, but how about "tucking the distaff under his arm" etc.? If the other suggestions don't suit.

Voles

[mouseworks.livejournal.com]

And I've already answered the spinning questions.

I'd check with Elizabeth Barber (Prehistoric Textiles or Women's Work) as to when what spindles were used as craft spinners today and spindle makers tend to be not so scholarly when given periods. Greeks even spun on the thigh using a thigh shield. Threads magazine in the early years had a very good description of an Italian folk spindle spinner and how she handled wool.

A guy named Alden Amos used to be my source for a lot of spinning and weaving lore, don't know if he's still around.

The real trick is letting controlling the rate at which the twist entered the area where the fibers are pulled away from the main fiber source (what I'd called earlier the drafting triangle). Sticking a distaff under your arm is not the hard part.

I haven't spun a whole garment's worth on a drop spindle, but there's a reason spinning wheels were invented.

Re: Voles

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Wow. Thank you. And not to worry: the spinning in this (VERY) short (12-page) story is just stage directions, so no need to dig deeper.

[tazlet.livejournal.com]

Keep it simple and visual: "pulling the strand," "spinning the thread," "drawing out the strand," "drawing out the thread," "drawing the thread from the wool with an assurance that no man could know."

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Yes! This is, after all, just a 12-page short story.

Is there a way to indicate his familiarity with the women's tool, without his actually beginning to spin anything?

[droolfangrrl.livejournal.com]

spinning with a drop spindle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gXTWgMeMgI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drXid5cT0y8

Mheh

[mouseworks.livejournal.com]

For me it's like gun technical foo -- getting it right satisfies the gun people (and I have gotten it wrong in some early books) and getting women's technical masteries right shows respect for our mother lines. (If I see thread wound on a distaff in the future, I will be real cross).

[myrddin.livejournal.com]

Owls, although I think the owl is associated with Athena.
Squirrels?

[lapillus]

Given the discussion of voles here I was amused to have this pop up on my rss feed today: Grieving voles hint at why human relationships last from New Scientist.

[renakuzar.livejournal.com]

you could use the golden jackal, thought that is predatory and not so small, same with wolves. There are plenty of lizards, snakes, rabbits, hares, foxes and weasels, even a cute little squirrel called a suslik.

There are many kinds of spindles. Is this a drop spindle? If so, it has a whorl (wheel of sorts) with a thin pole or rod through it. You sharpen the base of the pole and put a hook in the top. The whorl is closer to the top than to the base. See: http://www.joyofhandspinning.com/make-dropspin.shtml for more details. (this brought back memories of my folklore classes in college) I'd go with looping the leader yarn around the whorl myself as the xxxing the xxx. It is the part that requires deftness of fingers and judgement, otherwise the spindle will be lopsided in the spin.

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[eclecticmagpie.livejournal.com]

I vote for voles.

"Drawing out the thread" is the phrase that comes to my mind.