MFAs

[ellenkushner]

in the wake of my little rant and the ensuing LJ discussion, my cousin Els* sent me this link to a blogpiece by Kate Harding in defense of MFA programs (that mentions our very own Mary Anne Mohanraj!). It lays it all out pretty clearly, pros, cons and grim realities. As one comment says, "This is one of the best defenses of the MFA that I’ve ever read" - yeah, it is; and I'm still not perfectly convinced. But I understand better, now.

*She is such a wonderful blogger. A recent entry included: I was going to tell the story of My Harrowing Second Annual Holiday-Mailing Trip Down to Sumas In the Snow last Thursday, in four-part harmony, with feeling, but now it's been a few days and I'm afraid much of the narrative juice has leached out of it -- replace "Trip Down to Sumas" with justabout anything that happens to me, and she speaks for me - I still owe you all the story of the Spanish Swordsman! - "the narrative juice has leached out of it" . . . YEAH. That's the Stuff!

Comments

[scbutler.livejournal.com]

Her fourth point is actually one of my biggest bugaboos. It would be great if all MFA writing teachers were open-minded and accepting of all sorts of writing, but the fact is that a lot of them are not. And what happens frequently when they are not is that a certain type of not very good literary writing gets recycled over and over again as the close-minded teachers teach close-mindedness to students who gradaute to become close-minded teachers, etc. Sort of like certain consumers of hallucinogens recycling their own pee in search of an ever more perfectly distlled high.

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Heh! Well said.

[utsusemia.livejournal.com]

Doesn't it really depend on the writer? Some people, I think, thrive in a certain kind of workshop setting with regular crit sessions and assignments, etc. I was always wary of Clarion, let alone MFAs, because in college I took one creative writing class and was 100% appalled at the level of group think and general stupidity. It struck me that no one there had the slightest idea about the specifics of writing for publication. Maybe MFA programs do, but not many of them have much respect for spec fic and it seems like a lot of money to spend on a gamble. Especially when I feel nothing you get with an MFA (listed so thoroughly in the article) can not be had with some diligence on your own. Particularly if you live in New York.

[quizzicalsphinx.livejournal.com]

Have you ever read King's On Writing? There are two small sections where he pretty much nails his colours to the flag on the virtues of creative writing classes. His opinion mirrors my own experience: I've never been in a creative writing class that wasn't a circle jerk. There's a certain timidity pervading the air, the fear of saying something other than bland, polite niceties for fear of having one's own work skewered in the next go-round. Plus you get a dozen or so writers in the room and they're usually just as enchanted with their own writing as they are with anyone else's. It's a pain in the tuckus if you're there for concrete criticism. I'm vicious enough toward my own writing; I won't hesitate to take the scalpel to anyone else's.

[utsusemia.livejournal.com]

I have read On Writing, and yes, I totally agree with him there. I should clarify, though, that I've found a world of difference between a creative writing *class* and a crit group of like minded individuals. I'm in the world's most awesome crit group right now, and I've never had the issues of group think or over timidity. We're interested in writing for publication, all of us have succeeded at this to varying degrees, and we help each other by being as harsh as necessary. That's useful. A class, however, strikes me as being only as good as the instructor and the focus of the crits.

[quizzicalsphinx.livejournal.com]

Oh, that sounds lovely. Part of the reason I keep taking "classes" is in the hopes of falling into an actual criticism circle. So far, no soap.

(Wasn't there a fellow a few years back calling himself "Captain Fiction" who would stick people in a room for six-hour grueling writing sessions and berate them if they took a bathroom break?)

[utsusemia.livejournal.com]

that sounds...weirdly familiar. Also, a bad idea. But I definitely remember hearing something crazy like that. Did it have something to do with Orson Scott Card? (okay, probably not, but this is what happens when I start dredging things up from the hind part of my brain)

You know, even if you don't live in a big city, there are people who do pretty much the same thing online. If you can find a group of people you work well with, it would probably be a hundred times more useful than classes.

[arielstarshadow.livejournal.com]

I have a Master's Degree in History, so not quite the same, but for the record? It was a complete waste of time and money, and I've royally screwed myself financially because of it.

[gwynnega]

I got my MFA at Antioch Los Angeles, and had a pretty great experience. It was a limited residency program, which I think helped, and I had some amazing teachers. Plus I managed to write most of a (now completed) vampire novel while I was there...

[bondgwendabond.livejournal.com]

I can't say enough good things about my program, which was low residency. I wouldn't want to do a traditional program, because workshops are only useful for me at certain points in the process, and I found it much more helpful to be working one and one and producing tons and tons of fiction. The critical parts turned out to be more useful than I expected too.

Of course, my program was also focused on children's and YA writing, and thus open to any kind of writing in terms of genre--and no one ever tried to iron the weird out of my work. And, again, because of the intended audience, more of a combined focus--at least in my opinion--on being both literary and commercial.

Anyway, I got what I wanted from the experience: I grew much faster as a writer than I would have been able to do in the same amount of time on my own. Our program is also unusual in that many of the students are already quite successful writers, making good livings at it even, and the publication and award accomplishments of graduates are really something--I doubt there are many programs out there that could match up. It was also amazing to see the work of other writers evolve over such a short time.

Am I looking forward to paying off the loans? Not really, but it was a worthwhile investment and not one I regret (yet!). Now I can teach at the college level, should I decide that's something I want to do.

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Thanks, Gwenda! I had a feeling you'd have some insights.

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

I have to admit I was turned off collegiate creative writing when I took an upper-level fiction class at my undergraduate university -- up to that point, I had planned to specialise in creative writing, with a double-major in history. Basically, our professor began the term by denigrating what he called 'genre fiction'. Including fantasy, sci-fi, and even historical fiction, which was the majority of what I was writing at the time. So I began the class behind schedule, and my writing style simply did not agree with him. To his credit, he did give me fair enough marks in the end, but it was such a horrible experience that I decided to study literature instead.

[elorie.livejournal.com]

I'm in an MFA program right now. It has been a mixed experience, but I don't regret doing it, and the main thing it has done for me is to give me time and space to write. I have also discovered that I like teaching writing (even Composition) and am good at it.

Mostly, my professors have been very supportive...even the ones who aren't quite sure why I insist on writing SF or weird cross-genre interstitial whatsit. Some of them just love it. Some of them who were dubious at first have learned to love it. The whole process has given me more confidence in my writing, combined with a realistic assessment of what I am good at and what I need to work on. All of that is extremely useful.

And I definitely read the literary magazines I publish in, because there's more and more of my kind of weirdness out there.

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Yay!

[ninstorage.livejournal.com]

There's a reason why I run away from academic writing courses. That is all.

*sagenod*

[apis-mellifera.livejournal.com]

I have a BA in English with an emphasis in creative writing.

I haven't written anything creative since I got my degree. The program essentially sucked any desire I had to be a writer right out of me. So I guess, in some respects, the program was successful--it taught me that I'd rather stop writing than deal with the sheer amount of bullshit that went on in the workshop classes I attended.

"And it's been the ruin of many a poor girl...."

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

That is terrible. This is why I'm very, very cautious about workshops for anyone, with anyone.

Try writing again and only showing it to people who love what you do. The time for useful criticism comes much, much later in the process.

Re: "And it's been the ruin of many a poor girl...."

[apis-mellifera.livejournal.com]

The program I was in modeled itself on the program at Iowa--as many programs do. The biggest flaw in the the Iowa-style program is that it is so very easy for it to go bad. I don't know how other styles of workshops work, since my only experience has been with the IWW type.

I have other creative outlets, but maybe someday I'll start writing again. Well, writing something other than 175 word book reviews.