"St Vier" in French

[ellenkushner]

Swordspoint will be coming out this October in France, from the distinguished house of Calmann-Lévy. I am fortunate enough to know my translator, Patrick Marcel (we met at Worldcon in Glasgow), a.k.a. mantichore-- he drops in here on LJ from time to time, and weighed in on the French pronunciation of "St Vier" recently - but now we're down the nitty gritty, and came to a surprising realization. Here, with his permission, is our latest correspondence for your amusement:

PM: While you're mulling that question I asked you about "rivers", let's go for one more: how do you feel about St Vier?

Let me explain. On the one hand, one does *not* translate names, unless
there's a very good reason for it (a name that means something precise, a
name which, in the original text, is a translation or a transliteration from
another language. For instance, the Arab name "Sayeed" should properly be
spelled "Saïd" in a French translation).

On the other hand, "St Vier" didn't look quite right to me. While I was
translating the book, I've tried using "St-Vier", which felt a bit more
satisfying regarding the way it should be spelled... But not quite enough.
So I've asked [your editor], who has in turn asked the proofreaders at
Calmann-Lévy, and *they* seem to think it should more properly be spelled
"Saint-Vier" in French.

Which was my original feeling.

So, how do you feel about that? We can use "St Vier", it's not horrendous or
absolutely improper in French, but "Saint-Vier" would definitely look more
natural and more right. Righter. "More right", humour me.

EK: I have absolutely no problem with this! It was always a bit of a fanciful name, and in the service of the text I think it most wise ton alter it.

I'm actually wondering if you shouldn't change it to "Saint-Viere"? so it's pronounced vee-AIR instead of vee-EY? In English, as you know, I hear it as "VEER" - and many of my sentences were written with that rhythm (and those vowels) in mind.

It does make quite a difference: "Saint-Vier" in French sounds like someone shouting, while "Saint-Viere" is rather purring and sensuous. If you think that, in French, "Viere" would make a more appropriate sound, I would approve the change.
[It's also interesting to me that in English "Veer" sounds a bit like "fierce," while the French "Viere" is reminiscent of "fiere," which means "proud" - the right subliminal connotation!]

PM: Funny you should say that...

I just went out for a bit of shopping and a whiff of fresh air, and took the
opportunity to check if the comics of the week had arrived. And I started
chatting with the people at the shop, and I mentioned this discussion (I try
and plug the books I'm translating as much as I can; doesn't hurt), and a
young girl laughed when I mentioned the name.

"Why is that? Is there something funny?
- Well, obviously, you're not from Marseilles, are you?"
I confessed to the fact.
"Because in Marseilles, "vier" is slang for..." She laughed. "A male member.
People use the word all the time in conversation."

My take on it was that, hey, sod it! Because just about every word is bound
to have a bad connotation in some language or slang somewhere, but then, I
came back home, and found your suggestion. Serendipity, isn't it? In fact I
might even go as far as to suggest "Saint-Vière", to get that pronunciation
right!

"Saint-Vière" it is, then! And god bless La Marseillaise.

Interestingly, "St Vier" gave the Spaniards trouble as well - I had a long conversation with my wonderful editor, Luis Prado of Bibliopolis, when he was about to publish A Punta de Espada - for sociological as well as linguistic reasons I still don't fully understand (as my Spanish is pretty much nil), he begged me to consent to changing it to "de Vier." I honestly don't object to any of this; names are mostly sounds to me, so if it sounds better in translation, why not?

Comments

[shadefell.livejournal.com]

Wow, this is a really interesting exchange.

I giggled at the slang bit. :)

[ladyuranus.livejournal.com]

I always thought it was Saint Vee-AIR anyway, probably because I took French in high school and always go with the more French-sounding pronunciations. I like the change-- it is spelled like it should sound.

Best translation error ever, btw-- In America a Japanese comic had a character named Bald/Vald. The sounds in Japanese never translate quite right (though it mostly happens with l's and r's which are pronounced the same in Japanese), but the manga-ka insisted the character should be called "Bald." They printed a first run, got complaints from the fans, and went back to the manga-ka, telling her what Bald meant. They changed it to Vald.

So aren't you happy your translators are so conscientious?

[tlatoani.livejournal.com]

for sociological as well as linguistic reasons I still don't fully understand (as my Spanish is pretty much nil), he begged me to consent to changing it to "de Vier."

I have some Spanish, and I'm really curious. Can you elaborate?

(And I agree on Saint-Viere, btw...)

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

I cannot; but see chichiris_chica's response below.

[calimac.livejournal.com]

Are you familiar with Tolkien's "Nomenclature in The Lord of the Rings", which he wrote as a guide to translators? Many of the names in LOTR, especially hobbit-names, are meant to be meaningful in English, or (more complexly yet) in some antique variety of English that only Tolkien fully understood and that translators might not be expected to know, and he wanted them translated into equivalent terms; so for instance he wanted "Baggins" translated by a name with an element meaning "bag" in it.

Then there's the matter, which the essay doesn't discuss, of rendering Elvish orthography appropriately, as with the "Sayeed/Saïd" example. Some of Tolkien's translators paid attention to that, and some didn't.

[mantichore.livejournal.com]

In French, the translator actually called Bilbo Bilbon Sacquet (from sac, which means a bag, the extra "n" is a Classical tradition: Plato is Platon, in French). I've always found that perfectly reasonable and I'm very annoyed by all those readers who bemoan the fact that it should have stayed "Baggins". If they want their Baggins, they should read the original. Lazy bums.

Mind you, the French translation of The Lord of the Rings is replete with regrettable typos, the most glaring being the one on a map, where an arrow is labeled in French "Vers les lapins". Which means "to the rabbits". My guess is that there was not light enough or time enough when someone glanced at the original map, and misread hobbits. ^______^

[aulus-poliutos.livejournal.com]

I read LOTR in English, but I know the German translation changed some Hobbit names, like Bilbo Beutlin, or Frode's alias he uses in Bree to Unterberg.

[sovay]

"Saint-Vière" it is, then! And god bless La Marseillaise.

Awesome.

[aliettedb.livejournal.com]

I always read it as Saint-Vière mentally--even when I shifted back into French and talked of the books to my friends.
It's cool that the translator is obviously devoting a lot of attention to getting it right (they don't always do, sadly. I've seen a couple of horrendous French translations on the shelves).

[belledewinter.livejournal.com]

Since I read it in Spanish, I was pretty surprised to see Richard's name as St Vier and not De Vier in the original version. Linguistically it'd be something more common and easier to get. (Of course, he could have been San Vier as well. Though that sounds too religious.)

[ophanim.livejournal.com]

"Because in Marseilles, "vier" is slang for..." She laughed. "A male member.
People use the word all the time in conversation."

Oh, dear. There's an entirely new level of subtext to savor when considering all the opponents Richard's...um, skewered.

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

...And to think we almost let it happen.

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

::snerk:: That is fantastic. Though the name has always sounded more like 'Saint-Vié' in my head. When is the translation due to be published? I want a copy and I've owed myself a trip to Paris for awhile now (especially since the Eurostar is supposedly Not Unreasonable if you buy in advance).

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

It will be out in October - when, not coincidentally, I've been invited to attend the big SF con in Nantes, Utopiales
http://www.utopiales.org/
- of interest? Also, Delia & I will most likely go to Paris either before or after - maybe we could meet up there! It would be lovely to see you again.

I'm curious to know why you want a copy in French. The original, as you know, is in English.

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes! I had planned to go to Paris in June, but I'm drowning in deadlines so it would probably make more sense for me to wait till autumn anyway.

I'm actually just rather curious to see how it translates. Plus, I find it helpful to read books in French that I've already read in English to keep my French in working order. It'll give me a nice break from weird fifteenth-century Burgundian poetry. ;)

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Yay!

[yaoi-in-exile.livejournal.com]

Congratumalations! :3

I wonder if Richard changed his name at Highcombe for secrecy. Or maybe they both did, once flown. Or maybe they just kept to themselves and it wasn't necessary... *daydreams*

[ndgmtlcd.livejournal.com]

Saint-Vière also rhymes perfectly with "bière", which can mean beer but can also mean coffin.

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

Most excellent.

[ellen-kushner.livejournal.com]

And in English a "bier" (pronounced "beer") is also a stand on which to place a coffin.

[aulus-poliutos.livejournal.com]

I mentally pronounce the name French as well.

It's strange with Fantasy names for me: the default setting, even in English books, is German, except when the name looks to come from a language I have some knowledge of, like French, Italian, the Scandinavian languages ... In those cases I pronounce the names according to the resp. language.

And I don't want to know how future English readers are going to pronoune the Roman (or Germanic ones, for that matter) names in my books. *grin* Colleen McCullough gives a pronounciation list in her Rome novels for a reason, I think. :)

[(Anonymous)]

wow! i am very excited for
you that swordspoint is coming
out in france and totally jealous
over this awesome convo.

man.

congrats, e!!!

cindy

http://xiaotien.blogspot.com

[aqua-eyes.livejournal.com]

:giggles: If there is a word, SOMEWHERE it will be slang for penis.

[usullusa.livejournal.com]

Slightly off-topic, but still pertaining to Swordspoint and TPotS: I got one of those riverside shirts and it is quite nice. And by quite nice I mean I am in love with it. If anyone needs any extra encouragement, it's very soft and comfortable and pretty snazzy looking to boot. I posted a photo of it on my journal. You can use it for whatever purposes you may contrive should you feel the need to.

Félicitations !

[(Anonymous)]

Bonjour Ellen et Delia,
félicitations pour la publication de Swordspoint en français ! J'ai hate de voir la couverture et de prevenir mes amis qui font de l'escrime pour qu'ils le lisent au plus vite.
Moi aussi j'etais etonnee de voir que le personnage s'appelait St Vier car le nom que j'ai lu dans la version espagnole me paraissait tres adapte au personnage.
Nous venons de passer une soiree et une journee avec Scott et Justine qui sont vraiment tres gentils et interessants, merci de nous les avoir fait connaitre !
Bises a toutes les deux,
Maud & Luis

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