ellenkushner: (TPOTS SmallBeerPress (Clouet))
[personal profile] ellenkushner
Swordspoint will be coming out this October in France, from the distinguished house of Calmann-Lévy. I am fortunate enough to know my translator, Patrick Marcel (we met at Worldcon in Glasgow), a.k.a. [livejournal.com profile] mantichore-- he drops in here on LJ from time to time, and weighed in on the French pronunciation of "St Vier" recently - but now we're down the nitty gritty, and came to a surprising realization. Here, with his permission, is our latest correspondence for your amusement:

PM: While you're mulling that question I asked you about "rivers", let's go for one more: how do you feel about St Vier?

Let me explain. On the one hand, one does *not* translate names, unless
there's a very good reason for it (a name that means something precise, a
name which, in the original text, is a translation or a transliteration from
another language. For instance, the Arab name "Sayeed" should properly be
spelled "Saïd" in a French translation).

On the other hand, "St Vier" didn't look quite right to me. While I was
translating the book, I've tried using "St-Vier", which felt a bit more
satisfying regarding the way it should be spelled... But not quite enough.
So I've asked [your editor], who has in turn asked the proofreaders at
Calmann-Lévy, and *they* seem to think it should more properly be spelled
"Saint-Vier" in French.

Which was my original feeling.

So, how do you feel about that? We can use "St Vier", it's not horrendous or
absolutely improper in French, but "Saint-Vier" would definitely look more
natural and more right. Righter. "More right", humour me.


EK: I have absolutely no problem with this! It was always a bit of a fanciful name, and in the service of the text I think it most wise ton alter it.

I'm actually wondering if you shouldn't change it to "Saint-Viere"? so it's pronounced vee-AIR instead of vee-EY? In English, as you know, I hear it as "VEER" - and many of my sentences were written with that rhythm (and those vowels) in mind.

It does make quite a difference: "Saint-Vier" in French sounds like someone shouting, while "Saint-Viere" is rather purring and sensuous. If you think that, in French, "Viere" would make a more appropriate sound, I would approve the change.
[It's also interesting to me that in English "Veer" sounds a bit like "fierce," while the French "Viere" is reminiscent of "fiere," which means "proud" - the right subliminal connotation!]

PM: Funny you should say that...

I just went out for a bit of shopping and a whiff of fresh air, and took the
opportunity to check if the comics of the week had arrived. And I started
chatting with the people at the shop, and I mentioned this discussion (I try
and plug the books I'm translating as much as I can; doesn't hurt), and a
young girl laughed when I mentioned the name.

"Why is that? Is there something funny?
- Well, obviously, you're not from Marseilles, are you?"
I confessed to the fact.
"Because in Marseilles, "vier" is slang for..." She laughed. "A male member.
People use the word all the time in conversation."

My take on it was that, hey, sod it! Because just about every word is bound
to have a bad connotation in some language or slang somewhere, but then, I
came back home, and found your suggestion. Serendipity, isn't it? In fact I
might even go as far as to suggest "Saint-Vière", to get that pronunciation
right!


"Saint-Vière" it is, then! And god bless La Marseillaise.

Interestingly, "St Vier" gave the Spaniards trouble as well - I had a long conversation with my wonderful editor, Luis Prado of Bibliopolis, when he was about to publish A Punta de Espada - for sociological as well as linguistic reasons I still don't fully understand (as my Spanish is pretty much nil), he begged me to consent to changing it to "de Vier." I honestly don't object to any of this; names are mostly sounds to me, so if it sounds better in translation, why not?

Date: 2008-04-12 04:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladyuranus.livejournal.com
I always thought it was Saint Vee-AIR anyway, probably because I took French in high school and always go with the more French-sounding pronunciations. I like the change-- it is spelled like it should sound.

Best translation error ever, btw-- In America a Japanese comic had a character named Bald/Vald. The sounds in Japanese never translate quite right (though it mostly happens with l's and r's which are pronounced the same in Japanese), but the manga-ka insisted the character should be called "Bald." They printed a first run, got complaints from the fans, and went back to the manga-ka, telling her what Bald meant. They changed it to Vald.

So aren't you happy your translators are so conscientious?

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